Curse

lg5000 · Aug 05, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I have to ask... how effective is the ele's favourite spell... firestorm?

I haven't bothered with the elite missions and with the current hatred for certain professions, I'm not going to bother. Just curious as over 50% of all fire eles I've come across have firestorm on their skill bar

XvArchonvX · Aug 05, 2006, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

I'll say it! Mesmers don't belong in anything but PvP.

Take a mesmer that runs Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm, Clumsiness, Energy Tap, and Energy Drain. This build can easily take down enemies faster than most tanks and have the energy regen to do it over and over again. Not only that, but there is no other class that excels as much in taking down large casters/caster bosses. While I don't think I would use a mesmer in a group to an elite mission, there is no doubt in my mind that they are a fair force in PvE (even if PvP is where they can shine the most).

From my experience doing a deep run yesterday, I saw: a lvl 13 necro constantly trying to get in my group and begging in front of me repeatedly, a water ele joining and saying that he was a nuker, a battery necro that ran Life Transfer as elite, and a full ritualist group forming a party. Admittedly I am curious as to how the ritualist group went. I'm skeptical, but I do give it the benefit of the doubt.

What I have seen the most of however on both the forums and in games is a large clash of the casual gamer vs. the experienced gamer. Many casual gamers have started seeing the experienced gamers as "1337" stuck up pricks who won't listen to anyone unless they have done the mission 10 times and use the exact same build they do. The experienced gamer has started seeing anyone who is not entirely experienced with elite missions as "noobs" who have never listened and never will.

The truth is that they are both right and they are both wrong.

There are casual gamers who don't care to learn how to do the mission, but just want to pop in a group with whatever build they feel like and go. There are also mature casual gamers who haven't tried the missions before, but have either read about them to get a general idea of how to prepare, or are at least willing to listen to others who have completed it successfully in order to be able to support the team as well as possible. There is also everything in between.

There are experienced gamers who will start flaming anyone who doesn't run a build or have the same attributes that they see as "ideal" and will tell them to screw off before even trying to ask if that person could try it a different way so that their build could work with the team better. There are people who have done the mission many times that are willing to accept people who have never tried the mission before and are patient enough to help them prepare as well as open minded enough to listen to new suggestions or allow substitutions in non-critical skills. There is also everything in between.

I personally would like to see more people relax and stop prejudging others based on how experienced they are, start helping eachother, relax and enjoy the missions.

YunSooJin · Aug 05, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

I have to ask... how effective is the ele's favourite spell... firestorm?

I haven't bothered with the elite missions and with the current hatred for certain professions, I'm not going to bother. Just curious as over 50% of all fire eles I've come across have firestorm on their skill bar

Worthless. Firestorm completely negates any type of crowd control, which is important in the Elite Missions. You don't want the monsters that were safely bashing the warriors to run away from the firestorm and then re-target a caster.

lg5000 · Aug 05, 2006, 01:10 PM // 13:10

YunSooJin, I see I forgot half of my question... how many firestorms have you guys see go off during the elite missions by some random ele who thought the skill was leet?

sorry, late night and my mind doesn't work anymore.

YunSooJin · Aug 05, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

YunSooJin, I see I forgot half of my question... how many firestorms have you guys see go off during the elite missions by some random ele who thought the skill was leet?

sorry, late night and my mind doesn't work anymore.

When I go to the Deep, I am usually with 1 to 3 friends. We then carefully vet anyone we accept.

Or we just roll with Korean players in ID1, who complete the Deep in 50 minutes flat.

Yogi's Pain · Aug 05, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

When I go to the Deep, I am usually with 1 to 3 friends. We then carefully vet anyone we accept.

Or we just roll with Korean players in ID1, who complete the Deep in 50 minutes flat.

That should be the main topic of this thread. Who cares what classes you bring, I'm sure any team that is patient and works well together will eventually beat both missions no mater what the group build is. However why would you want to spend twice the time taking characters that aren't as effective.

We used to do Urgoz in 2 hours. Not sure if this is a good time or not since I only went with one guild. If you can do the Deep in under an hour, maybe I should start heading that way.

YunSooJin · Aug 05, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Well Yogi, here's a disclaimer:

I can read korean, and I am korean american. This enables me to be considered to be brought along with all-korean teams.

What's interesting about korean teams is that everyone is competent, unfailingly polite, and understand basic mechanisms concerning aggro, holding aggro, and all know the deep fairly well.

In comparison, english speaking teams are rude, drop out often and seem to think they are God's Gift to PvE (I am TOTALLY making generalizations here, and loving it, because this is completely true in comparison to playing with Koreans).

Most english speaking teams = deep in ~1.45-2.5 hours.

Most korean teams = deep in 50 min-1.4 hours. And that's with NO ventrilo, barely any communication. Just competence. And not needless arguing about how mesmers should be considered equals in the mission.

FireKingX · Aug 05, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Well Yogi, here's a disclaimer:

I can read korean, and I am korean american. This enables me to be considered to be brought along with all-korean teams.

What's interesting about korean teams is that everyone is competent, unfailingly polite, and understand basic mechanisms concerning aggro, holding aggro, and all know the deep fairly well.

In comparison, english speaking teams are rude, drop out often and seem to think they are God's Gift to PvE (I am TOTALLY making generalizations here, and loving it, because this is completely true in comparison to playing with Koreans).

Most english speaking teams = deep in ~1.45-2.5 hours.

Most korean teams = deep in 50 min-1.4 hours. And that's with NO ventrilo, barely any communication. Just competence. And not needless arguing about how mesmers should be considered equals in the mission.

Although I do not know Korean, I have to agree with you.

I have played with some of them and I have to say they're much more organized and there doesn't seem to be any rude people.

Electric Sky · Aug 05, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Mesmers do know how to kick ass - the problem is whether or not that player knows how to use the mesmer class correctly, so i guess you suck at that class ?

ElinoraNeSangre · Aug 05, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireKingX

Although I do not know Korean, I have to agree with you.

I have played with some of them and I have to say they're much more organized and there doesn't seem to be any rude people.

Maybe Koreans value staying calm, not freaking out, not being a jerk, and having fun a bit more than some of their English-speaking counterparts...

I doubt it's really helping how some people play when they've got people saying, "omg you suck noob!!!" rather than trying to help people play better in a constructive way. Like the post about bad skillbar = kicked; it makes more sense to me to say, "Can we offer you some suggestions based on what we know of this mission?"

If they get pissed and say no, then fine, kick them because they obviously can't take feedback and that's never good (in a video game *or* in the real world, such as in holding a job...). But as many people have pointed out, inexperience doesn't mean incompetence; some people just need the right constructive feedback about what they can do *right* not just what they're doing *wrong*.

Avarre · Aug 05, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

I will make one final concession: mesmers have their uses in Urgoz, simply as a SINGLE TARGET anti caster tool against the huge trees.

I accept your concession, but mesmers in urgoz also serve well to mass interrupt groups with echo/glyphed CoF, and shatter hex is the hand of God there.

In deep... there are plenty of uses, as support damage degen or dom, which I have found more effective than many of 'damage dealers'. Granted, their use is less so than in Urgoz.

ChaoticCoyote · Aug 05, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I personally would like to see more people relax and stop prejudging others based on how experienced they are, start helping eachother, relax and enjoy the missions.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Saphatorael · Aug 05, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireKingX

Although I do not know Korean, I have to agree with you.

I have played with some of them and I have to say they're much more organized and there doesn't seem to be any rude people.

Don't forget the chinese people... when i wanted to do cap soul leech on my Me/N at Abaddon's Mouth, i visited international districts, only to find a 7-player chinese team... i was allowed in it!

Not only did they actually clear the entire back area looking for the boss (which actually never spawned), so i proposed doing the bonus now that we did all the work anyways, and they never commented me (even though they were using their awkward signs, there was only 1 guy that i actually could communicate with...)

Chinese players have earned my respect, I hope i'll meet more of them, since they're alot more skilled than my European 'partners' in PvE...

Oh, and i'm also very worried about the amount of players still thinking that only warriors, ele's and monks are required to complete the mission.... and i'm annoyed by the non-level 20's to even give the mission a shot... i COULD do the mission with my level 20 necro, but i won't... since i already know i won't be able to play my best with it... I'd rather have a fully prepared character (so only my Tyrian warrior, monk and mesmer) will actually be visiting that mission area, i'll only give it a shot with my necro when i think i'm up for it... i still have alot to learn about necro skills.

CHUIU · Aug 05, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sli Ander

I respect your opinion, but there is a difference between being least effective and not belonging in pve. And it all depends on what you're looking for when you're looking for that "something better". So it doesn't do great AoE damage, but it is a fun and challenging class, eitherwise no one would play it.

I agree its a fun and challanging class, mesmer is my favorite class to play (tied with necro). But PvE is boring and easy and mesmers mostly work on 1 target at a time whereas a nuker can take down 5-6 targets in just a 2 or 3 seconds more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Take a mesmer that runs Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm, Clumsiness, Energy Tap, and Energy Drain. This build can easily take down enemies faster than most tanks and have the energy regen to do it over and over again. Not only that, but there is no other class that excels as much in taking down large casters/caster bosses. While I don't think I would use a mesmer in a group to an elite mission, there is no doubt in my mind that they are a fair force in PvE (even if PvP is where they can shine the most).

I can think of a better build than that. But I can also see how an ele with arcane echo, meteor shower, rodgorts invocation, fire attunement, and ele attunement can kill much faster than that and hits more than one enemy at the same time.

Though for the record, I do still prefer mesmers on certain PvE missions when people ask for my help. I run either an illusion or domination build depending on what we're doing. Some examples of missions I bring my mesmer on are Abaddon's Mouth and Boreas Seabed. Because in these situations I can shut down the enemy bosses faster than any group can kill it making the mesmer useful for that purpose. But those are like the only situations in which I think a mesmer would be useful over something else. You still can do both those missions just fine without a mesmer or even an interrupter.

FireKingX · Aug 05, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElinoraNeSangre

Maybe Koreans value staying calm, not freaking out, not being a jerk, and having fun a bit more than some of their English-speaking counterparts...

I doubt it's really helping how some people play when they've got people saying, "omg you suck noob!!!" rather than trying to help people play better in a constructive way. Like the post about bad skillbar = kicked; it makes more sense to me to say, "Can we offer you some suggestions based on what we know of this mission?"

If they get pissed and say no, then fine, kick them because they obviously can't take feedback and that's never good (in a video game *or* in the real world, such as in holding a job...). But as many people have pointed out, inexperience doesn't mean incompetence; some people just need the right constructive feedback about what they can do *right* not just what they're doing *wrong*.

If it keeps going like that, it will end up just like HA...

Former Ruling · Aug 05, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Its simply because theres an influx of people that don't know HOW to do it right now that have direct and easy access to trying to do it.

If they haven't learned the builds and such needed then of course they are going to suck...Gotta give them time to learn - gotta let them get kicked from groups a couple of times

There are some though I agree that just don't learn...Like my rants about pve tombs.

Electric Sky · Aug 05, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

people are only attracted to elite missions because they think that every drops in that area are really rare - and that is all they want - not to do the mission efficiently but just the drops itself.

GloryFox · Aug 05, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

But PvE is boring and easy

Really... I find PvP the same as you find PvE. To each his own I guess. However I have personaly seen more PvP people die in urgoz then veteran PvE'r's. The style of play is different, that is why PvEr's usualy die in PvP matches more.

All of this Flame really needs to stop. I have beaten the Deep with an Assassin (Chain Knockdown build) and a Mesmer. I have beaten the warrens as an Assassin (Palm Strike, Twisted fangs, Shadow Mastery build). Some builds are a bit better than others IMO some don't. Really most of you people here are very destructive in your rants and raves here. You should listen to yourselves at times. Instead of saying blanket statements like Assassins have no place Mesmer have no place. How about "If I did take an assassin I would build in this way or my Mesmer this way." Try changing the attitudes of people through real discussion instead of 3rd grade rants that make you all look ignorant.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 05, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

...and the REAL reason there's a higher failure rate right now than there normally is:

Not everyone playing right now are farmers who'vefarmed this mission fifty times before.

Cracko · Aug 05, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

I SEE TOO MUCH W/MO's WHO DONT KNOW WHAT TANK MEANS AND USE MENDING!

[/rage]